As I have already blogged I was asked by the lovely Max Kaizen to attend a debate at the Sandton Sun.
The Unexpected Business Case for staying in SA sparked my interest immediately. The event is about to get underway. Mike Stopforth and Paul Jacobson are already at their seats on the panel with their Macs right in front of them. Nice.
So from here on end I’ll be updating as the debate goes down. I’ll try and save the post and update every few minutes. I’ll also be tweeting the event as much as I can so follow my twitter stream if you feel so inclined.
The panelists setting up pre-debate
17:05
As per usual at events like this people trickle in. Painful. Why can’t South Africans (read humans around the world) ever be timeous?
It also looks like each panelist is either going to be using Google to gather facts/stats or will be presenting something along the way. Interesting. Paul mentioned that his approach is a bit out there but in some strange way comes back to the SA Rocks mantra of Positive Action. Let’s hope Paul!
17:15
Things are underway. “We are not trying to agree or disagree with one another, we are trying to open debate.” – David Donde
All panelists are doing a 5 min presentation. Then debate will open.
Mike Stopforth
First sad year for Mike as he seriously considered leaving SA. Went abroad and it was like he was shopping for a new place to live instead of being excited to stay in SA.
“Despite economic constraints we [SA] see opportunities opening to us all over.”
“The more people that leave, the less likely we are to solve the problems that face us.”
“There are always opportunities to create links, network and build relationships. As companies there is a desire to say How do we build together” – this is the foundation of Mike’s talk.
I’ll add Mike’s short video tomorrow
Paul Jacobson
Paul has a VERY big photo up on the screen.
Paul says he has a different take on (messes with Microphone) the topic today. No pie-chart, graphs or anything like that. He’s talking from his own thoughts and perceptions.
“We live in an environment which isn’t fixated on laws as rules. Rules tend to be more like guidelines here.”
Living in this enviro – a loose sense of rules – makes a fair amount of wiggle room in SA. This gives rise to opportunism in SA. Either there is not enough regulation or an absence altogether.
Less regulation = more innovation (not sure I agree with Paul here). This can lead to lack of respect for judicial independence and integrity. Which also leads to a notion of endless corruption.
YET – there seems to be a fair amount of potential despite bribery or what have you. Some of the reasons being telecommunications industry is opening up (How is this not going to be affected by the lack of integrity and ethics in SA?).
Respect for human rights is NB = freedom of expression.
With all the possibilities it is still going to be a rocky road ahead.
Democratic institutions still under threat. Yet we have the promise of a new world. IF we are prepared to adapt to a new reality of moral and ethical relativism. If we can do this, we can find a space to thrive.
Joshin Raghubar
A lot of South Africans have struggled with the “stay or go”.
What does topic mean by “unexpected”… is it stating obviously that it’s unexpected to leave or to stay?
It’s not a race thing anymore. Many diverse cultures are leaving.
Business Case – meant to be rational and backed up with empirical evidence. But humans are not rational. The choice to stay and go is not a rational one in the end.
We need to rationalise our irrationality.
Do you have to leave to make it big?? – Joshin believes to REALLY make it big, you have to STAY. If you really want to “shoot the lights out” you need to be in SA.
UK – People are comfortably poor.
Let’s rationalise things: Total Access – we have total access to anyone if we really want to get to them. It’s relatively easy to pick up the phone and meet someone. (Agreed fully).
If you want access… just ASK.
Untold Opportunity – in first world countries alot of ideas have been done. Here, there is room for growth, experimentation and the ability to learn from the mistakes of the world. At the top skills level we are producing world class people.
Gateway to the continent – Africa is the final untouched market and globally people are scrambling for it. SA is still seen as the gateway to Africa. Abroad people are paying up to $250 a pop to listen to what SA is doing in the markets.
Skilled people benefit disproportionately – The skilled will benefit with a larger slice of the pie.
We speak English
Technology trumps geography – (I love this) Anything you can send down a wire is up for grabs. We as South Africans are in a position to benefit from this.
Expand your world views. If you leave stay South African, don’t become an ex-South African. (Great quote).
What narrative do you want to play for yourself? There are very few more compelling than the triumph over adversity.
Branco Brkic
Branco displaying pictures that represent reality in SA today in place of a presentation.
“Really worried about the state of SA. Fork in the road and we aren’t sure which way the country will go. We have serious problems (not challenges).”
Not certain we will sort out our issues.
We need to stay true to ourselves. Who is going to be in power, Zuma, Motlanthe? VERY NB.
The issue is that the situation, the way we feel about SA, is always influenced by your current level of success. “I’m not having great success at the moment and that influences my state of mind”.
Branco just left stage. Very ill. What a pity. He was on to something.
Debate begins:
Is immigration leaving a void or an opportunity?
“Africa is a rough place and that is probably what makes us able to succeed abroad. The only constant factor in SA is… change.”
“How many white people can speak a national black language?”
David Donde – built a global micro-brand and discovered it’s pretty cool to be African.
Andrew (Internet developer) – Intrigued by Paul and Joshin’s comments. Paul’s moral relativism.
Discussion around why South Africans are tolerant of crime. Paul: Laws are just disregarded in general. Thus we are tolerant.
To stay here you need: “Your own moral compass. Where you stand for your choices. On the other hand you need to accept that not everybody is going to see eye to eye with you. You need to find your place in society.” – Paul Jacobson.
I’ll have to stop writing now, taking part in the debate.
Similar Posts:
- The UNEXPECTED Business Case for staying in South Africa
- 5 reasons to stay in SA and 5 reasons to leave
- SA Promo – Keeping South Africans abroad in touch
- Coming or Going – what have you heard?
- Immigration…it’s about weighing things up
Popularity: 5% [?]
September 8th, 2008 at 7:31 am
Louis here from London…
Dang, the site already existed. I thought of creating it, but someone has already taken it up.
Thanks for the Live blogging Nic! Almost feel like I was there. (minus the waiting, and I’m getting the content at 06:00 in the morning)
Like many other “Saffas” as we are called abroad, I have also left SA, initially just to go and have some fun overseas, but found that it would be really tough to move back.
Contrary to Popular belief, the drop in Income when moving back to SA is not the main factor why most people don’t return (at least the ones that I have spoken to)
Although we are mostly living “comfortably poor” overseas, there are some fundamental reasons that keep us here:
1) Safety and Security
2) Freedom of expression / association
3) No racial discrimination
4) In my case, the Internet, in its full glory (not the scaled down, unusable access available in SA)
I actually believe that EVERY person in South Africa, after finishing high school or university should leave South Africa for a year or two.
Here’s my reasons:
1) Change of perspective
I have been lucky enough to see “fresh off the farm” South African’s arrive for the first time at a Saffa Bar, Thinking that they know everything and being quite bluntly racist, and then seeing them a year or so later with friends from different nationalities and a completely changed person.
Similarly if people who do qualify for Affirmative Action jobs go and work in free and democratic countries for a year or two, they will also realize the injustice that South African leaders are doing to the country.
2) Acquiring Skills / experience not available in South Africa
In most major cities abroad you can learn almost anything and get experience in anything you choose to put your mind to.
My brain has always been a bit of a sponge, and with free libraries, uncapped Internet and higher earnings you can really just pick a topic and start learning.
When it comes to work experience: A lot of South Africans I know have found roles/positions in the UK that they would not have been able to do in South Africa and acquired skills and experience that SA can benefit from immensely.
For many enthusiastic, entrepreneurial and basically very Bright South Africans that I know in London, a main barrier for returning to SA is that they CANNOT be part of the team to help the country grow, just because they are judged on their skin colour.
Until SA is a free and fair country people will either:
1) leave for greener pastures (mainly because it rains more)
2) Move to Cape Town where the sea can calm their nerves
I came to London about four years ago (because its the only country that does the working Holiday), and although I had studied and completed a BSc IT degree, none of the jobs I could “qualify” to apply for in South Africa would have paid any bills.
I am still evaluating whether and when I will return to SA, or whether the Australia East coast have better waves…
I Hope that one day some good news from South Africa (like a educated election vote) will bring me back.
LouisinLondon.wordpress.com
Louiss last blog post..Why you should use the “Flock” browser
September 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Thanks for this Nic, interesting breakdown and I’m sorry to have missed it.
A post-debate update would be good – how did it turn out? Does PJ’s quote at the end sum up the conclusion? [like the way he put it].
PS “17:15…I’ll add Mike’s short video tomorrow”???
September 11th, 2008 at 1:11 am
All that Louis said applies to me too. I couldn’t have said it better. Whether I end up back home or not I will always be South African and will always be so grateful for what the country gave me. And try in tiny ways to say thanks.
Pos last blog post..Thoughtbite 4 – little people
September 16th, 2008 at 10:02 am
I guess I have a different perspective to what the concept of ‘debate’ entails; since I participated in RAdical Honesty debates, and they are just out of this world == talk about enlightenment…
But to each his own, I guess, seems like a racket to me; bandaids on braintumours kind of thing.
Lara
“A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small “inside” group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many.” — USMC Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler
Lara Johnstones last blog post..Financial Tsunami Revolution: Enronesque Helium Bookkeeping, Ponzi Scheme Derivatives and Pump & Dump Chickens Come Home to Roost