On Tuesday I was listening to the Fresh Drive on 5fm. I have not heard such a heated show in a very, very long time. Fresh prompted a discussion about the 12 year old boy who was murdered by his victim. yes that sentence is a bit screwy, but true.
The boy had just robbed a man of his cellphone. The man apparently chased the boy who dropped the cellphone in the process. The man picked up the phone, fired a warning shot and then shot the boy in the upper body which killed him.
The debate on the Fresh drive was fought, and I mean fought, between Catherine and Ruben (two of Fresh’s team).
Ruben was in favour of the murder. He was emphatic that the 12 year old got was coming to him and that crime has gone unpunished for too long in SA.
Catherine was fighting for a humans right to live and believed at the time of the conversation/debate that no one person has the right to take another humans life.
I must say I sat in my car and was grateful for the traffic for the first time ever. The traffic allowed me to catch most of the debate and I was absolutely involved in the whole thing. I was even talking to them and their callers. Some of the callers were exceptionally ignorant and even this morning someone phoned in and contributed to the conversation on Gareth Cliff’s show.
My opinion is extremely torn. I am extremely torn.
Let me begin by stating that I do not in any way, shape or form agree with or condone the death penalty. I believe that a person’s right to live supersedes almost and just about everything. This is a principal that I believe in, however I am well aware of the fact that this opinion could easily be changed by various violent circumstances. If I have to choose between my life or my attackers life, they die. Simple. And I know that this flies in the face of what I have just said, but so be it.
I do not believe that the man should have murdered the boy, and let’s not forget that this is what he did, murdered the boy. Catherine’s argument on the radio was that we do not have the right to judge the boy, his actions or his future because we just don’t know. This I agree with. She felt that the man should have taken the boy to the police. This I agree with. But at this point let me use Ruben’s rebuttal; there is no system in place in SA that is effective enough for people to know that if a 12 year old is taken to the police, a correctional service or any other educational facility, he will be helped to become a contributing member of society in a positive manner. Ruben is spot on.
This boy would’ve been taken in to a correctional service, or prison and become more of a criminal. Then when he is released 10 years (or however long) down the road he would become an educated, desolate youth with no future and no choice but to return to crime and develop this skill.
And with that let the catch 22 kick in. What is a person to do? Take the law in to their own hands? Become vigilantes? Rule with an iron fist and lead bullet? I cannot agree with this.
This man needs to be found and put away like the murderous criminal he is. The law is clear about this:
Researcher and retired police commissioner Johan Burger, of the Institute for Security Studies, said the law was clear on when people were permitted to shoot.
“You can only shoot at a person if your life or the lives of people in your immediate presence is in danger.
“So, only if a robber threatens you in a way that is serious enough to believe that a life is in danger can you use a firearm,” Burger said.
And this is my opinion. We MUST let the law be effective, we must HELP the law to do so, we must not take it in to our own hands and create our own sense of justice. This is not good and will not turn out well. Ever. Anarchy is not an effective situation for any coherent resolution. Ever.
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April 10th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Its a bloody cellphone. Its not like the 12 year old tried to kill the guy or anything is it? However I am sure crime is getting out of control. I am in favour of the Death Penalty for the most hardcore of crime. If a person is to kill more than one person, then he/she should be unfortuantely killed. If a person is to rape more than one person, then he/hse should be unfortuantely killed. I am all for human rights, but others human rights should be respected as well, and that the right to live in peace without a constant threat of being raped, murdered or abused.
April 10th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Sorry, can I add someting else quick.
Living in NZ, this related to something that happened recently. A 50 year old man stabbed a teenager to death after finding him grafiteeing on his fence. I think the teen was about 13, i am not sure.
April 10th, 2008 at 11:21 am
I believe that each case should be dealt with and killing a criminal over a cell phone is stupid. Yet, how many criminals have murder kids fro their wallets and cell phones.
However, when it comes to holding people hostage in their own home and when their is a case of rape I firmly agree with the Deputy minister of Safety and Security.
SHOOT THE FCKERS! Don’t ask questions anymore, don’t try and be the good cop anymore. I realise some innocents might get hurt BUT at the moment too many innocents are being harmed. I say the policy should start using their guns. Shoot the criminal bastards and send a message out that we are sick of this.
here are the deputy minister’s comments the other night: http://tinyurl.com/5qsa6l
I love South Africa but I think we should get serious with this “War on Crime” everyone keeps declaring. Lets see it in action! I realize this post seems exceptionally violent but unfortunately, living in this country of ours, there’s only one way the criminals are gonna back down. Thats when they see that we are serious and that we will kill to protect our family and friends.
April 10th, 2008 at 11:43 am
I’m with you 100% on this, Nic, and more: if we want to live in a society free of crime, that starts with us. Whether it’s simply sticking to the speed limit, or choosing not to support criminal gangs by buying illegal drugs, or not shooting people just because they piss you off (!), it’s up to us to keep the line firm. Sure it won’t stop the murderer down the street if I pay my taxes and drive nicely, but it will help to turn around the growing general sense that laws are for other people. I am not above the law, and neither is anybody else, and if more of us acted that way we’d all be better off. I have been the victim of violent crime myself and it has not changed my opposition to the death penalty one bit. There is a potential rant there but I will spare everybody
April 10th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Hhhmmmm
When I first heard the story (before it was released that it was a 12 year old kid) my first thought was – Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Playing devils advocate here….
At the moment you have to acknowledge that human life in SA is cheap and respect for property is non existent. If it had been a women who happened to corner that kid in her home – what are the chances he might not have run? Your wife, your girlfriend, your daughter?
There is no condoning violence but remember that the chances are better than even that you might not be given the same choice if the situation was reversed…
Like I said – Devils Advocate…
April 10th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
well, i’m not gonna express my views, but simply say that our government has given us permission to kill anyone who does crime (i assume this include j-walkers).
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2303163,00.html
April 10th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
This is such a difficult debate, fraught with emotions. Quite clearly killing a 12-year old because he stole your cellphone is absurd and barbaric. But Marc is right – life is cheap in South Africa and many people have been murdered for a mere cellphone. And criminals have free reign, with the era of human rights giving them more protection than their victims. On the one hand, this foul, murderous person decided to be a victim no more and took the law into his own hands. And with the country’s failing judiscial system, is was inevitabel that some idiot would do something as stupid as this.
Like Nic I am facing a conundrum – one part of me – sadly – agrees with what the guy did, only for the fact that it send a message that some South African are no longer excepting the status quo. Mostly – gladly – I feel this was wrong. But I do understand why people would argue the boy got what was coming.
The rule of law must abide. We cannot regress into a society where anarchy reigns supreme – we will be no better than the old regime, or the facists on the 1930s and 1940s. But a revisited to the meaninf of human rights is necessary.
April 10th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Nic, it is insufficient to state that “there is no system in place in SA that is effective enough for people to know that if a 12 year old is taken to the police, a correctional service or any other educational facility, he will be helped to become a contributing member of society in a positive manner”. You simply cannot give preference to this argument without well researched and thorough statistics. What of the children that HAVE succeeded, what about those who have made a difference? To adopt Ruben’s pathetic rebuttal is to refuse the constitutional rights of this country.
The problem in this incident and in society at large is that we are neglecting the heart of the problem in favor of immediate short sighted action. What has lead this child to steal a cellphone? Education, socio-economic situation, malnutrition, peer pressure, the list goes on.
By blatantly murdering this child’s life, how do we understand why the child stole the cellphone in order to channel resources into fixing it?
I think its great that people are commenting on your article, however I would like to challenge the way in which certain commentators state their thoughts:
SteveMcD: Surely there are numerous other ways to force criminals to back down. Why do you jump straight into violence instead of education, gun-culture instead of looking at the manner in which violence and crime is born and developed?
Hugh Jacobs: I suggest you adopt a more critical response to what you read in the news. Do you simply believe that this allows us to murder people? This quote is completely without reference and proper substantiation. You have also mistaken the context in which she was speaking.
I’ve had a shotgun held to my head. I am a victim. The question I ask is Why is this happening? Ending a criminals life is surely not going to provide the answer.
April 10th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Firstly I’m impressed that SARocks actually put this on their site. For the first time I’ve actually seen a negative aspect of SA on this site.
Secondly it strikes me as excessive force used by the shooter to the 12 year old. Unfortunately we do not know the circumstances. The shooter may have felt threatened by the boy or the boy might have been lot larger than the average 12 year old. Many factors could have causes the shooting.
The simple fact of the matter is that people in South Africa are tired of crime and when crime does hit them they react without thinking. As they said on the Fresh Drive, the guy just reacted. If he needed to shoot the kid then he could have shot him in the leg or something but for all we know the shooter could have been a bad shot.
I feel nothing for the kid, when you’re robbing people at 12 what will you be doing at 16? Criminals need to know that there are consequences to their actions and people are allowed to protect themselves.
I’m not sure what the fuss is here? Is it the fact that he was 12 or that he was killed? Frankly neither surprise me in South Africa. I don’t think it’s good that the child is dead but I certainly feel nothing for him.
April 10th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Tristan
Just an observation – and this is not criticising your way of thinking so please don’t take it as such.
You’ve mentioned education and dealing with the issue of what has inspired the kid to steal. Reality – society cannot support an infinite number of freeloaders. It is not the shooters fault that the child was born in the wrong place and the wrong time. The law punish him for his actions.
When the guy walks into your house or office with a shotgun and asks for your money it is not because they don’t have education or job opportunities. They have made the conscious decision to take something that doesn’t belong to them. There is only 1 thing that THAT person in THAT moment in time will understand.
A mate of mine and his fiancee were driving on Hans Strijdom – smash and grab where the robber actually got hauled half in the car. Now bearing in mind that he has done R2k worth of damage to the car – the mate and his fiancee were so busy struggling with the guy that all 3 of them had their arms cut to shreds on the glass… They’re both on ARVs (on their own account) for the next 6 months. Not lekker. Horror stories like this abound so no point in pushing another one.
There are a whole generation of kids who have been exposed to so much violence and “gangster” lifestyle – they literally don’t have hope. They are going nowhere irrespective of intervention strategies. The concept of charity is that you cant help everyone.
The flip side of this – we’ve been involved in community projects doing financial and small business education for communities. I kid you not that every time we have been into the townships the lecture rooms are full to the brim. The enthusiasm for these projects give you hope that for every bad apple there is an entire lecture hall full of enthusiastic young kids coming through.
Without sounding cheesy – THIS is why SA Rocks – Changes are happening irrespective of what you read in the news and when these kids come into “productive” society they will be valuable contributors.
April 10th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
It seems morals and ethics will never lead us to the right answer here. Anything can be justified as ethical or moral depending on the facts which are presented. What if he was stealing to feed his family who are one meal away from starving. What if he had a criminal record and a history of violent crime. What if the victim is a vigilante and has a violent streak himself [carrying a gun around during the day]. These arguments are pointless as they just take us around in circles and away from the facts which matter.
Bottom line is what you said Nic and I agree with [even though some readers here don't agree] – the value of the human life.
Yes, some people obviously don’t respect it, but if we say death is the answer, then what makes us different from these murderers? Nothing. Surely a life cannot be taken in anger or revenge regardless of the circumstances?
April 10th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Wow, some really intense answers and well thought out response. Thanks everyone.
I’m gonna try and present responses to everyone. Not everything, but at least one response to everyone:
Marc – you say that if a person is to kill more than one person or rape more than one, does that mean if I kill and rape one person I am ok?? I’m confused.
SteveMcD – “I realise some innocents might get hurt BUT at the moment too many innocents are being harmed.” so it’s an eye for an eye?? “War on crime” You mean become murderers ourselves? I think that’s just silly and makes us as bad as the criminals. In fact, according to the law, it makes us just that, criminals.
Pam – I think that you have the right idea, start small, grow the idea of abiding by the law, it will take time, but we will eventually all want to help our country improve its crime status.
Marc Ashton – “Live by the sword, die by the sword.” back to an eye for an eye. Devils advocate is great, but I don’t really get your point?
Emil – Glad you concur with my sentiments. The “human rights for criminals” argument I think is flawed. You need to be fair, just and decisve with EVERYONE, even criminals. Don’t give them MORE rights, but give them rights. The second we take away basic human rights for anyone we become dehumanised in every aspect.
Tristan – I am not adopting Ruben’s opinion, I am offering it up as point of view. I agree, stats are NB, but not everything. I can say that but without proof, and it isn’t completely left field as the crime rates are high, as are the unemployment rates and the education rates.
I completely agree with you saying that we are missing the heart of the problem. That is our solution, not the context of a single instance, it’s the context of the entire process of crime and our society.
SaulK – This is not a negative South African thing. This is a human rights debate, a mentality debate and a debate surrounding individual choice. Not whether SA sucks or rocks.
David – “Yes, some people obviously don’t respect it, but if we say death is the answer, then what makes us different from these murderers? Nothing. Surely a life cannot be taken in anger or revenge regardless of the circumstances?” Exactly.
April 10th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Marc A, thanks for your observations, I enjoy healthy debate.
I see where you’re coming from and I commend your community projects. I too have been involved and it is encouraging to see the enthusiasm for education, particularly amongst the kids.
I cannot accept your argument that the cause is not because of education or job opportunities. This is precisely the cause!
As an example, the criminal that held a gun to my head was young, clearly nervous, probably high and probably without education; he does not understand the implications of his actions or the process by which crime is dealt with.
Take the 12 year old, he probably has no idea that taking a cellphone is wrong because he has been lead to believe that it is normal, or he was forced to do it by a gang leader, or he was high, there are a number of possible reasons.
The notion of conscious decision making is fundamentally about education, of which the majority of criminals do not have. One kid once commented to me that taking somebody’s wallet is okay because that person can afford a new wallet while he needed the money for food. True or not, it points to the need for a systematic education renewel system centered around the right to an education.
Unfortunately, we do not have enough of these. The demand has outgrown the supply. But that is no reason to abandon hope simply because intervention strategies aren’t working. We’re a young democracy, things take time and if anything, this should accelerate the need to look at new education strategies.
April 10th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Nic, thanks for your response. I have written a post a while back stating that we are indeed loosing our morality (http://emiljung.co.za/?p=139). I don’t want to republish that post here, so I invite you all to read it and comment (yeh yeh, a little opportunistic of me in soliciting some contributions, I know).
April 10th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
One other thing worth adding – one of SA’s most prominent economists [who also lobbies for a basic social grant] noted in a presentation last year that 85% of first-time crime is poverty-related. If true, this means people mainly steal for the first time out of necessity, and then after that it becomes a bad, and in some cases, violent habit.
This also links directly to education, where improved education would help provide income or a means of living other than crime, and so reduce the root cause of crime. A basic social grant would also help in this way, and South Africa can afford this, believe it or not.
Punishing crime is like treating the symptons rather than the cause. Let’s face it, it’s a long-term problem. Alleviating poverty, unemployment and education is the first step, and I believe also the best step, to getting us out of this vicious cycle.
April 11th, 2008 at 8:03 am
one should also consider the victim of the cell phone theft… was this the final straw? how many times in the past has he come close to crime? how many times had he been affected by violent crime within his family circle? sure its over reaction – but the innocent are fed up and need to respond. I would like to get some understanding of the psychological effects that this violent crime in SA has on generally law abiding citizens…. does it manifest itself in incidents like this?
April 11th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Nic. no its not ok if you only rape and kill one person. But then you should get lifetime in prison. The fact is, if a person is evil enough do kill or rape twice, then surely he/she has no remorse and deserves to be put to death.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:19 am
I tend to agree that it is a bit severe to shoot a kid for a cell phone, but we dont know what other crimes this person was a victim of. At the same time, we often let ourselves become victims by not fighting back. As a law abiding person we have no protection from any quarter, what must we do?
I have been hi-jacked twice, and my feelings as a woman are that if someone shot my attackers and drove off I would not have divulged details.
I feel that it is time to fight back, because criminals will kill you for five rand.
April 14th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
If I dont know its wrong to steel murder and rape.Why do i run away or us a GUN to do so.Tristan???????????
March 19th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Nowadays it just seem the norm to rape, kill, torture, murder innocent people, farmers, elderly, riot, strike burn and plunder.etc.
Is there any African state that is not living in poverty. Amazing they have guns and bullets but NO FOOD?? Each family consists from 4 to 10 children!!!
The stupid whites are for every jumping in to assist, for what? do you really think they are going to thank you one day?
They wanted to govern themselves so let them and stay out! and please do not refer back to apartheid! Our country is worse off now than before.
March 19th, 2010 at 11:30 am
To revert to the 12 year old that was shot, if he did not steal or attempt to steal the cell then he would still have been ok. What was he trying to prove, that at his age he can do what the rest do?
Sorry, I have no sympathy for him. Not after reading how some of the whites have been tortured to death. Broken glass shoved up vaginas, breasts cut off and slogans written on the walls while the women were still alive! and this after being repeately raped and beaten.
I can only say God help us all!